Was gibt mit diesen Deutschen?

Can someone please explain to me what are the historic sources of the Germanic doom-and-gloom mentality that has manifested itself across the entire 2,000 year career of the Germanic and German peoples? Starting from the earliest beginnings of Germanic and Scandinavian myth (about gods who instead of having a good time are engaged in a ceaseless, miserable, hopeless struggle to stave off the inevitable destruction of their world, the Gotterdamerung), it extends right up to the immense popularity of The Sorrows of Young Werther in the late 18th century (about a young man who commits suicide); to Schopenhauer’s pessimistic philosophy in the mid-19th century; to Nietzsche’s doomed (naturally) attempt in the late 19th century to reverse Schopenhauer’s pessimism by uttering a joyous and defiant “Yes” to the eternal recurrence of misery and meaninglessness, whereby the superman would be created; to the immense popularity of Thomas Mann’s incredibly depressing family saga Buddenbrooks at the beginning of the 20th century (about a vital and successful bourgeois family that over a couple of generations dribbles down to nothingness); to the depressive quality of today’s Germans (can that really all be due to the shame of Hitlerism, or would the Germans have been that way even without Hitler?), not to mention the seemingly chronically depressed Swedes, whose idea of a good time is to talk about the meaninglessness of everything.

I’ve picked up hints that the root of this bleak mentality was the terrible defeats suffered by the Goths at the hands of the Huns in the third and fourth centuries, which sent the Goths reeling backward in panic from southern Russia into Europe (see Gibbon’s unforgettable account of a million Goths crossing the Danube into the Roman empire), where in quick order they defeated Roman armies and destroyed the western Roman empire. But how would a few lost battles, soon followed by world-historic victories and the successful founding of kingdoms and then of an entire civilization (that’s Western civilization, born of the fusion of Christianity and the Germanic barbarian cultures), create such lasting psychic scars? What is wrong with these people?

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Rick Darby writes:

I’m a climatic determinist. I blame it on the weather they live in. Of course, Britain’s is equally lousy, but the Brits’ saving grace is their sense of humor. I’ve been told that Germans have none.

Anthony Damato writes:

Germany has some of the most beautiful natural settings imaginable. I’ve lived and traveled there for years and the weather and seasons are similar to ours. Their more northern location should mean more cold, but I’ve never really felt a significant difference. I think in the case of the Germans, some other causal agent is affecting their psyche other than the weather.

LA replies:

Very interesting! Climate is important, but I feel it is often exaggerated as a factor.

Mark J. writes:

Aren’t the Chinese also known for their fatalism? In fact, when you think about it, aren’t most or even all of the other cultures of the world more or less fatalistic? Isn’t our American optimism one of our defining characteristics? Perhaps it’s not that the Germans are unusually fatalistic, but that we are unusually optimistic.

LA replies:

I am speaking about a particular German cultural mentality. Conflating the Germans with all peoples in the world other than Americans is to cancel out the topic that I raised.

Of course I agree on the uniqueness of America. And of course, as a general proposition, we can say that the Old World and traditional cultures accept social circumstances or “fate” in a way that Americans do not. But that is not what I was asking about. I am asking about this specific Germanic belief in an impending cosmic doom. To get a quick grasp of what I’m talking about, read the chapter in Edith Hamilton’s Mythology on the Scandinavian myth.

Gintas writes:

Germany certainly has been a hive of Enlightenment mischief. The wonder is that Darwin wasn’t a German. [LA replies: Darwin was utterly English, reducing the phenomena of life to a utilitarian formula (a criticism Nietzsche made of the English). A German would not have done that.]

Germany historically has been overrun by whoever had a notion to go through there on the way to Russia, or Jerusalem, or wherever. Also there are dark powerful forces from the East, looming like thunderclouds. Germany itself never seems to be a final destination, but just a churning cauldron of trouble on the way to some hell or other. It’s the strategic central position in Europe, but also the least secure. Dark forests, wild beasts, untamed pagan men, roving mobs from the East.

But if you want to stare into dark chaos, look into Russia, where you are swallowed up in the endless swamps, even darker forests, large bears, the steppe, endless vodka, and bitter howling cold…

Hubert S. writes from Belgium:

After reciting a number of gloomy characteristics of the Germanic and German peoples, you ask: “What is wrong with these people?”

That is a risky thing to do. One could ask the same question about other peoples. The Jews for example. Some do. Otto Weininger probably did, the young genius who committed suicide at the age of 23 to escape from his Jewishness.

An interesting quote:

“Der Antigermanismus scheint wie der Antisemitismus zu den Grundstimmungen der Welt zu gehoren; er bedarf keiner Begrundungen.” [Accents had to be left out because they do not display correctly.]

“Anti-Germanism seems to belong like the Antisemitism to the basic tendencies of the world; it does not require reasons.”

(Ernst Junger, Strahlungen III, Jahre der Okkupation, 15 November 1945).

LA replies:

To compare anti-Semitism with some supposed anti-Germanism and to suggest that I was remotely engaging in this supposed anti-Germanism is ridiculous. The obvious fact you miss is that there is now a world-wide movement of hate against Jews and Israel with half the world either seeking the destruction of the Jewish state or supporting those who do. The suggestion that there is an analogous movement against Germany is absurd.

Also, anti-Semitism is the belief that the Jews are a unique source of evil for the world. I wasn’t suggesting anything like that about Germans. I was not wondering why the Germans are dangerous to other peoples; I was wondering why the Germans are gloomy about themselves.

Also, when I said, “what is wrong with these people,” that was not a call to dislike Germans. It is a question about the German psychology, which is an old question, probably asked more frequently by the Germans themselves, with their famous insecurity, than by anyone else.

C. writes:

Maybe this is why they were susceptible to Hitler and idea of victory and reborn Germany and sieg heil, which means hail victory. Did you ever wonder why that became such a central feature of Nazi rallies? Maybe because their thought had been so imbued with defeat, that it was intoxicating to think that they could be victorious.

Van Wijk writes:

Very interesting post. When you look beyond the case of the Goths and Huns, the military history of Germany details a long string of humiliating defeats. From the premature drowning of the Emperor Barbarossa, the utter failure of the Northern Crusades and the near annihilation of the Teutonic Order, the bloody mercenary wars of the 17th century, through to the overall poor showing against Napoleon and the two world wars. My point is that the vast majority of German military endeavors have ended in defeat, and unlike the English or the French, the Germans really don’t seem to have had any lasting military victories. They had no Charles Martel and no Henry V. Personally, I have always associated the Germans (perhaps unfairly) with a certain kind of moral sickness.

As for the Swedes, I suppose the extreme northern location of their country may have something to do with it, but by that logic the same should follow for Norway, Finland, and Lapland.

LA replies:

But Charles Martel was the leader of the Franks. The Franks were a Germanic nation. It was a Germanic people that saved Europe from Islam.

The Carolingian leaders—Pippin, Charles Martel, Pippin the Short, and Charlemagne—were among the most successful dynasties in European history.

Michael Jose writes:

Could the roots of German misery perhaps come from the fact that they lived in a climate where winter was longer and harder than, e.g., the Mediterraneans? When winters are long and the climate cold, the idea that the world is always on the brink of total destruction might seem to make sense.

Allan Wall writes:

Regarding the Germanic doom-and-gloom mentality, I’ve wondered about it before myself .

I don’t think Gothic defeats explain it. The Goths disappeared as a people, assimilating with other ethnic groups and so aren’t the ancestors of today’s Germanic people. Even the Gothic languages are all extinct.

A related question is why the Anglo-Saxons, who were also Germanic, opted out of the doom-and-gloom mentality.

LA replies:

The English are distinct from other Germanic peoples in all kinds of ways. I think part (just part) of the explanation is that the English are less Germanic in their racial make-up. For one thing, there is clearly a Neolithic “Mediterranean” component (smaller stature, darker coloring, strong protruding noses) in the English that one doesn’t see in Scandinavians. Also, we don’t know the degree to which the Anglo-Saxon conquerors in the fifth and sixth centuries actually displaced the older Celtic Britons.

But then what about the Norman Conquest? Wouldn’t that have restored a completely Germanic element at the top? It seems to me that while the Normans were racially a Nordic Germanic people, there was something altogether exceptional about them. Maybe the 150 years of becoming Frenchified before the Norman Conquest permanently changed their character.

Another side of this, which I can’t demonstrate, it’s just something I sense, is that there is some “harmony” between the English and the Jews, some overlapping of certain qualities. It’s mysterious, and can’t be nailed down, but it’s there.

Allan Wall replies:

To what degree did the Anglo-Saxons displace the Britons and to what extent did they intermingle. It’s still an open question, I think. But one thing is clear, the English language owes very little to the Celtic Britons, mostly just place names. So that means that whatever the ethnic mixture involved, the Anglo-Saxons’ language was dominant. I think there may have been something about their island mentality that helped to form the English character.

As for the convergence between the English and the Jews, I’ve noticed that too. That also contributed to the covenant concept in English Christianity, that as God had a covenant with the ancient Israelites, He had a covenant with England. I’m not referring to the various “Anglo-Israelite” theories, which are historically unfounded, but there really is some similar quality shared by the English and the Jews.

LA replies:

Of course Mr. Wall is correct about the disappearance of the Celtic language from England being strong evidence that the Celtic peoples were removed from England too, either being killed or fleeing to the western fringes of Britain.

Mark Jaws writes:

Herr Auster:

Du hast uns gefragt, was los denn mit den Deutshcen ist. Ich sage Ihnen.

Between 1976 and 2000 I spent a total of eight years in Germany. I studied at a Goethe Institute, became engaged to a German, joined the army and was stationed at Augsburg, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, and Ramstein. This is just my opinion, but the Germanics are only happy when they are ruling over others. Either they are at your throat or at your feet. I don’t remember if I read it in Caesar’s account of his conquest of Gaul or somewhere else, but during their prehistoric period the Germans constantly fought among themselves and ultimately the strongest survived, producing a race of warriors. It is in their blood to conquer and rule and they simply cannot abide by “go along to get along.” Dies ist nur mein Eindruck. [Which I believe translates as “This is only my impression.” LA.]

LA replies:

Do you then approve of the present German policy of locking Germany into a transnational sovereignty in order that Germany can’t threaten other nations again?

LA continues:

This is pure guesswork on my part, but it seems to me that Mark Jaws may have come up with a possible answer to my question about the roots of German gloom and defeatism. If it’s true that Germans are only happy when ruling others, then the various defeats they’ve suffered in their ancient and their modern history would have wounded them more deeply than would have been the case with some other people. Any situation other than one in which they are ruling others, will be sensed by them as a “twilight of the gods.” And since, for well known reasons, other peoples find it intolerable to be ruled by Germans, the Germans are fated to a sense of gloom and doom.

LA continues:

Also, although my original question was not at all suggesting that Germans are dangerous to others, Mark’s answer and my reply to him do suggest that. I have no opinion about this myself, but am only following the discussion where it is leading. The theory being offered is that the Germans are indeed dangerous to others, and therefore the Germans must be hemmed in, and therefore the Germans are doomed to be unhappy.

Anthony Damato writes:

Mark Jaws’ theory does not make any sense to me.

First off, if it is in the Germans’ blood to govern and rule, why then, as you’ve pointed out, have they surrendered to the rule of the EU without much resistance? [LA replies: The answer would be that the Germans themselves are convinced that they are a menace, and must be constrained.]

Germans are a defeated people who readily embrace the American cultural imperialism they say has modified their society for the worst. Worse yet, they are paralyzed by the guilt of Hitlerism.

I think the general intelligence of Germans made them very successful in battle through the ages, but their hubris doomed them in war in modern times.

Where did this come from? Wagner illustrates this in Gotterdammerung. In the end all is destroyed because the gods refuse to give back the gold—the ring. Pride, arrogance, and ultimately tragedy, all reflections of Greek mythological thought, influenced the Germanic tribes, the Scandinavians as much as the Greeks.

Their general mindset of nihilism seems to have predated their pagan myths and was never fully reconciled with their subsequent Christian identity, also an alien imposition, which they are now shedding en masse. Still, faced with an almost innate connection to the Norns, spinning out the fabric of unalterable fate, Germans seem to possess some intangible defining quality that today can be said to be a component of the West’s own self destructive behavior.

I think that the reason for their temperament is a genetic memory. I am not convinced that their temperament has to do with invading Huns or Roman legions, because that wouldn’t explain why other peoples, many of whom were also embroiled in existential struggle, are not also perceived, as the Germans are, as morose and humorless and intimately in tune with the fact that all must come to an end.

James W. writes:

It is well to remember that the single largest ethnic group in America are German-Americans.

The characteristics described in these posts are present but not dominant in the expression of their heritage here for many obvious reasons. So, you take the German out of Germany and…

The characteristics I tend to notice of German-Americans may not promote an over-representation in talent at the comedy club, but does not prevent them from laughing while seated as its customers. And, they are much less prone to gas the talent on this side of the pond. It may be, as someone noted, living in the very middle of competing nations and ideologies simply concentrates certain proclivities we already have.

Quite aside from intelligence, different ethnic groups, in my opinion, have slightly different peculiar talents and characteristics. Small though they may be, when isolated in a nation or culture, they become more visible and self-reinforcing.

Many a time I’ve heard the same observation about Germans commenting on Americans when facing off in the two world wars in particular battles: they were, at times, counfounded by the unpredictabilty of Americans. Which means they find themselves predictable. It may be that this is someting they find important, and necessary, a bit more than others do.

Being on one’s back with the boot in one’s neck, or the other way around, as another poster noted, is a form of predictability. The uncertainty of rough equalities would be a burden to such a mentality. We all know people who are very much like that. They require dominance or submissiveness in all relationships, personal or business.

Exchange between Mark Jaws and LA continues.

LA writes:

So then according to you is the present German policy, of locking Germany into a transnational sovereignty in order that Germany can’t threaten other nations again, a good idea?

Mark Jaws writes:

Although much of the menacing Germanic warrior gene pool was emptied in the trenches of WWI and along the vast Great Russian Plain in WW2, it is still a good idea to save them from themselves.

LA replies:

But then you are saying that the evil EU is necessary?

Mark Jaws replies:

One wishes alternatives existed other than the EU to hem in the Germans, but that is the only game in town right now.

As a half Jew, who grew up with many Jews in NYC and environs, I can easily put my finger on what makes Jews different and why they are different. Like the Jews, Germans tend to be super competent in what they do (science, engineering, craftsmanship, technical and organization skills, etc) and are very aware of that talent. However, because of the guilt from the Nazi-era, they have been forced to suppress this pride and perhaps that has contributed to their torment. Back in the early 1990s I was one of the US Army V Corps liaison officers to the Bundeswehr, and through that assignment I got to speak with many German officers. One of them told me how much he envied us Americans because he had noticed how readily and naturally we could express our pride in being Americans (he witnessed this at Disneyworld), while he, as a German, could not. He remarked to me, “Wenn ich nur sagen koennte, dass ich stolz bin, ein Deutscher zu sein. Aber fuer uns Deutscher, ist dass nicht moeglich.” (If I only I could say that I was proud to be a German. But for us that is not possible.”)

I think this torment of the Germans is comparable to the pain and frustration we white Americans feel because of PC. Only now, as we sense our possible demographic demise, are we Eloi starting to strike back at the Morlocks. The Germans, given their past, perhaps never will.

LA replies:

This is an interesting theory but I don’t believe it. I don’t believe the Germans are so inherently aggressive, even now, that the only way to prevent them from starting more ruinous wars is to create a supranational European sovereignty which subsumes not only the German nation but all the nations of Europe, thus killing Europe. What it comes down to is that in order to save the nations of Europe from being subordinated to the Germans, we have to subordinate them to the evil EU, which by the way is dominated by Germany.

Brandon F. writes:

You asked about why German’s are so negative (I loved the Schopenhauer and Nietzsche lines).

If you lived in a sometimes dreary climate, ate bitter vegetables, drank bitter beer (in some regions for breakfast), and consumed the fattiest of meats what kind of attitude would you have? Add Lutheranism to the mix and you’ve got a recipe for misery! (Tongue in cheek)

Posted by Lawrence Auster at May 30, 2007 01:45 AM | Send