Rhys-Davies is quoted as saying that ‘Western Christianised Europe has values and experiences worth defending.’ Only in a civilization as sick as ours could such a tepid-sounding affirmation be seen as somehow offensive by The Guardian and as heroic by us at VFR. (If I may say us,Mr. Auster. Not presuming that you endorse what I say. ) Not to denigrate Mr. Rhys-Davies, or VFR. But it simply seems to me that when a statement of the bleeding obvious becomes support for a so-called “far right” party, the BNP, and grist for left-wing propaganda mills, then we are indeed in the serious trouble which Mr. Auster here so well discerns.

Ahh, but I didn’t say he was heroic. I said he was sane and morally healthy. :-)

True, I also said he was unafraid. Given the present state of society, it does take a certain courage for a person in the public eye to speak plain language about these racial and cultural realities.

And from The Guardian link provided, here is another, about the comeback of Le Pen in France.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,11981,1120554,00.html

Rhys-Davies fudges the issue by saying that if the Moslem invasion were simply a matter of one genetic stock replacing another, that would not be important. He is careful to confine his comments to the survival of a culture, not a people. He has not grasped the nettle of ethnic and racial differences, and the likelihood of masses of non-Westerners becoming truly Western.

Nevertheless, given what he does for a living and the ideological bent of those who pay him for it, Rhys-Davies was quite brave to say what he did. He also deserves a lot of credit for not issuing an immediate mea culpa and knuckling under as soon as he was criticized for it. HRS

I think it’s fair for him not to show all his cards; debate and argumnet only proceed from areas of common agreement.

Roach,

We agree. Rhys-Davies is taking a risk, and knows it. As he said to Jeffrey Overstreet in his interview: “I’m burying my career so substantially in these interviews that it’s painful. … You do realize in this town [Hollywood, I suppose] what I’ve been saying is like blasphemy.”

Is it exposure to Tolkien that has moved him to speak up now, or something else? I would be interested to know what led him to sound off about such a delicate topic. I would also be interested to know how many in the acting world agree with him. HRS

Given the political orientation of the entertainment business (not just Hollywood) John Rhys-Davies remarks are indeed heroic. I wonder if we will ever see on on a television or movie screen again.

What is so new? The same thing was said in the 1920’s about immigrants from Eastern Europe coming to America. The Europeans allowed Muslim immigrants in and failed to “Europeanize” them. I believe we are doing a better job “Americanizing” Mexican immigrants who come over (and often return) than they did with their guest workers. Before the members of the new Know-Nothing party who is your readership gang up on me let me say that I do not support Bush’s guest-worker proposal. A better balance of enforcing the present laws, social aculturation (it works, I lived in Texas for 17 years), and perhaps more liberal legal immigration for our neighbors would do a lot to alleviate some of the problems. Since when do we really listen to what entertainers think?

Because, you know, one million legal immigrants a year is so stingy.

They said that about Eastern and Southern European immigrants; were they wrong? Ever heard of Czalgasz or Sacco and Vanzetti or the Wobblies?

Looks like we saved America and these immigrants )just in time from recreating the worst aspects of their homelands over here. The 1924-1965 immigration reprieve was one of the most auspicious policies in the history of American government.

Roach,

You cite three individuals, two of whom were executed, and the Wobblies, who were headed by Bill Haywood, an English sounding name to me. Of course the millions of Eastern and Southern Europeans who immigrated here contributed absolutely nothing to the history and culture of this country; they have been nothing but a drag, eh? You may want to check the dry-cleaners, your sheets may be ready.

Eastern and Southern Europens had IQ’s that made Americanizing them a lot easier than it will ever be to Americanize most Mexicans ttam117. Oh; that’s right, IQ just can’t play a part in all this, after all, all peoples and cultures are the same, right ttan117 !

Oh no, I’ve been called a racist. What should I do?!?

Consider my point carefully: these folks had anti-American and leftist ideas to a far greater degree than America’s more well-established citizens of English and Celtic origin. The Wobblies’ membership was chiefly poor and immigrant and from parts of the world without our republican traditions. There was no 18th Century Haywood for a reason.

These folks assimilated only after the 1924 reprieve (and only after bringing the anti-American socialist FDR to power). They’re only now catching up with the Anglo majority in terms of college educations and political consciousness. And only that after the break in immigration.

Their current success is directly related to the reprieve which allowed them to cement their American identity, intermarry, and learn American values. There is no such hope for the current crop until that is done, and it will likely take longer b/c the IQ diffrences and other differences between now and mid-20th Century America, i.e., our anti-Ameircan public schools, ethnic differences, etc.

ttan117 is completely ignoring another facet of the issue, which has been touched upon by roach. In the earlier period of mass immigration, mainly from eastern and southern Europe, there was no welfare system and there was no such thing as multiculturalism. Immigrants of that era were forced to assimilate if they wanted to have any chance at all of improving their lives economically.

In order for there to be any hope, however slim, of assimiliating immigrants from Latin America, these two entrenched institutions of liberalism would have to be completely abolished and dismantled everywhere they are found. Does ttan117 seriously think that this will happen, especially in light of the core beliefs of Bush and the oligarchs he represents? The whole assimilation argument made by ttan117 and his neocon allies is thus quite disingenuous.

Roach,

I feel safe in saying that the Jews who immigrated from Eastern Europe have surpassed the “Anglo majority in terms of college education and political consciouness.” I am sure Justice Scalia would be interested to know that he is just catching up to someone like yourself.

Will assimilation of Latin American immigrants be easy? No because as Carl states there have been few incentives for assimilation. I do not support bilingual education. These groups have never been encouraged to create their own institutions to assist in the assimilation process. However, the earlier groups of immigrants may have also been encouraged to immigrate because they were made to feel welcome and that they had a chance to succeed. I am not sure treating them as sub-human gives them any incentive to assimilate. The illegals are here and we need to decide what to do about it. My gut feelings is that there would be a lot of braying from the right if the INS were expanded to such a size need to deport all of them within the strictures of the law as it is today. If we do ship them all back who will cut our lawns? Complaining about the Roosevelt administration is not the mature way of making policy.

Notice how ttam117 race baits, but when the IQ question comes up in relation to peoples and culture there is nothing but silence:)

Participants in this discussion might be interested in a page I’ve put together about John Rhys-Davies and his remarks, with all the relevant links I know of:

http://www.angelfire.com/in3/theodore/links/jrd.html

We’ll cut our lawns ourselves you lazy pussy. What are we, Saudi Arabia? I myself, in my own lifetime, have washed dishses, waited tables, cut lawns, worked retail, stacked boxes, and done plenty of other jobs that used to be done by young people and are now almost all done by immigrants. Your lazy prescription for America will become a self-fulfilling prophecy; before long maybe you can add soldiering to this list and we’ll truly resemble the late Republic.

As for Scalia, I know of what I speak as I’m decended from that wave, and the first generation to go to college and the first to go to law school. But Italians in particular encouraged people to learn a trade or get a city job. That’s how it was in the immigrant neighborhoods of Bensonhurst and Sheepshead Bay where my family grew up. (The Jews, you are right, were different). I’m glad my grandfathers didn’t have to earn a living by competing with waves of new foreigners from 1922—1965 though. They had HS diplomas, fought in WWII, and worked with their hands and could raise a family.

And, coming from that stock, I don’t have the white guilt that prevents so many people from looking at this issue clearly.

And Jews are overwhelmingly liberal and democratic, retaining the alienated ethos from the European countries whence they came. Their liberal political values suggest deep alienation from America, as do their attempts to undermine the power of WASP elites and the currency of WASP values. And I say this as an Irish-Italian Catholic who is quite appreciative of the benefits of Anglo-American Political Culture. I guess I’m a latter-day Orestes Brownson—or so I kid myself!

No more of this name calling. The poster who has no name but only letters and numbers started it with a reference to a people in white sheets, then roach upped the ante with his own name-calling. Let’s cool it.

Also, in the name of having a more civil, pleasant online environment, I would encourage people to use online names that look and sound like real names. It is typical of the dominant counterculture that people like to call themselves things like TT703 or the name of an insect. But this is a traditionalist website, and I would encourage posters, if they’re not using their real names as I do, to use online names that at least sound like the names of human beings.

Hey Roach is my last name, though also the name of an insect. It is Irish/Norman French and means “of the rock.”

Now that you remind me, I think I knew that Roach was your real name at some point from visiting your website, but I forgot. Sorry about that. Nevertheless, your use of the lower case, combined with the absence of a first name, just the lower-case word “roach” by itself, would not tend to give people the impression that this is your name. What I’m suggesting is, if you want people to understand that “roach” is your last name rather than a word for an insect, then capitalizing it and putting your first name in front of it would remove any ambiguity.

How about this? I must maintain at least some ambiguity, for job-related reasons.

Ahh, now we’re back in a recognizable Western world. :-)

One point above I’ll comment on is the notion that deportation would be an impracticable step. As precedent, Operation Wetback of 1954 resulted in hundreds of thousands of deportations over a period of less than 6 months — and this was by only about 700 Federal officers.

A bloated Federal agency wouldn’t be necessary, (though probably pursued anyway), if the gen’l govt. would simply bring State and local law enforcement into the picture.

Another point about that operation is that it resulted in hundreds of thousands more illegal aliens heading back home on their own for fear of being apprehended — and undoubtedly more were detered from coming in the first place. Remember the matter of the Haitian boat people? When President Clinton started turning them back THEY STOPPED COMING!

What’s really a bad joke here is that we haven’t even TRIED to enforce our immigration laws in a serious way. Our Border Patrol is undermanned, underfunded, and demoralized — many were outraged over the latest Bush betrayal. We have the resources and the technology to enforce these laws, and to repatriate those who have violated them. But as it stands today, there are 80,000 violent ex-felons, illegal aliens, who have served time and are out on the streets. The ‘responsible’ Fed’l agency doesn’t even know where most of them are. This is like a parody of tragicomedy.

Last year, just under 700,000 people were arrested for marijuana — and the vast majority of those cases didn’t even involve any real pre-investigative work; they were just caught. Yet we don’t have the resources to start deporting illegal aliens? What is lacking is the moral fortitude and political will — to say nothing of respect for our Constitution.

btw, on the issue of pseudonyms, I have posted on other boards under the name “Glaivester,” including the scifi.com board and the FrontPageMag board, in case anyone recognizes me.
Also, btw, I am Anglo-Saxon and Jose is pronounced “J” as in “Jeff” and “ose” as in “dose of medicine.”

Joel LeFevre writes:

“A bloated Federal agency wouldn’t be necessary, (though probably pursued anyway), if the gen’l govt. would simply bring State and local law enforcement into the picture.”

And, as someone has pointed out (I think it was Steve Sailer, or someone on VDARE), it’s not like we never deport anyone now. All we need to do is to increase the number of people we deport.

Nice to speak to “Glaivester” again. We crossed swords in the past on frontpagemag, where I was known simply as “jtl.”

I’ve pretty much stopped posting there, as that forum tended to bring out the lowest aspect of my person. And as the time available in a given day is limited, I give what little I have left to this site, where I admittedly have gained much more than I have been able to give.

There are speed limits on highways and many people, perhaps most, would like to go over limit. Traffic cops stop a very small percentage of the speeders, but that has deterrent effect on the would-be-speeders.

Start deporting a few, announce that if we have to deport you, you will never be allowed to immigrate to US, and self-deportation will become the rule.

After 9/11 FBI went semi-seriously after illegal Pakistanis. After a few were detained a huge number self-deported themselves back to Pakiland or Canada.

“Will assimilation of Latin American immigrants be easy? No because as Carl states there have been few incentives for assimilation.”

One of the failures of the pro-immigration side is that they never explain why assimilating lots of immigrants from Mexico will be beneficial to us? Even if we accept the argument that in fifty years Latinos will be economically and socially like modern Anglos, how will America be better? However, if assimilation fails and America breaks up into strong ethnic blocs and politics takes on an acute racial angle, then America will be lost and virtually unrepairable. So what’s the argument for open borders?

Interesting point by Caballero. Even if one believed that there was a 90% probability that perfect assimilation would occur, we would be taking the 10% risk in order to… stay exactly where we already are. The only reason we would do that is if self-interest on the part of America was completely illegitimate.

The use of the Know-Nothing Party as a pejorative in modern immigration discussions is amusing, but historically ignorant. The Know-Nothing Party wanted to import guest workers and not allow them to become citizens. This was their solution to the fears people had about Catholic and other immigrants of the time. In that light, Bush’s amnesty program is very similar to the Know-Nothing platform, and his opponents on this board are diametrically opposed to the Know-Nothing position, yet the label is applied to us.

Good point by Mr. Coleman. The American Party or Know-Nothing Party did not seek immigration restrictions. Its main platform was to extend by some years, I think 14 years, the time required for naturalization, so that raw foreigners would not be able to vote.

The Know-Nothing Party wanted to do this for all immigrants. President Bush wants to do this for illegal immigrants only. So, Bush’s view is different from the Know-Nothings’.

Here is a recent interview with John Rhys-Davies. He hasn’t backed down from his previous statements. A few generations ago, there were indeed actors who could have held their own in an intellectual debate. Rhys-Davies is of that type and refers to Tolkien in the interview. Here is the thread:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/leigh200403051052.asp