I have the same thoughts about the flag as well. However, I always thought it odd that the flag bears such an strong echo of the snake in Genesis, after the Lord says that Eve will strike at the snake’s head, and he at her heel. That does not seem like a propitious referent.

Gerald

Thanks to Mr. Russello for providing such a classic “wet” response to the Don’t Tread on Me flag. He starts off by saying that he shares the positive feelings I expressed about the flag. But then he turns around 180 degrees and portrays the flag in the most negative possible terms. If the flag, simply because it portrays a snake, is a symbol of Satan’s rebellion against God and the Fall of Man, then how could one view its use by the United States with anything but disgust and disapproval? And therefore what could Mr. Russello possibly have meant when he said that he shares my positive feelings about it?

Truly, the connection with the Satan in Genesis 2 had never occurred to me. If that symbolism must be brought up whenever there is reference to a snake in any circumstances, then the ancient symbolism of the snake as coiled up energy, as wisdom (as in the symbol of the medical profession for example), and so on, would all have to be thrown out. Is that Mr. Russello’s position? Or does he continue wanting to have it both ways?

Furthermore, by saying the flag is not propitious, Mr. Russello is engaging in an odd re-construction of history, since the infant revolution that that flag symbolized was indeed successful and did lead to the existence of the United States of America.

If Mr. Russello wants to undermine a national symbol in this way, and on July 4th no less, he should have just come out and done so, instead of saying that he liked the flag prior to trashing it.

Gerald’s remark is very inaccurate. Here’s the real history of the Gadsden flag:

http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html

oh, my. Such strong comments without refuting, with actual evidence, the obvious point that the Genesis imagery would have been transparent to the Biblically-rich generation of 18th cent. Americans. Such an echo would have been at least as obvious, if not more so, than the “ancient” but unspecified understanding of a snake as a source of “wisdom.”

The iconography about what the snake (actually, the American rattlesnake) meant was concocted almost completely by Benjamin Franklin, who was the first to use snake imagery, in 1754, and who published the first description and explanation of the “Don’t Tread on Me” symbol. It is unclear where Franklin got his description, and I would appreciate anyone who can provide that information. That it has also come to mean other things (for example, strength or resilience), while an interesting exercise in how symbols can change over time, has no bearing on my point.

That the Gadsden flag was not approved for the post-independent United States may be further evidence in my favor; perhaps the imagery was too strong. The colonies did incorporate the cross of St. George into their new flag, whom, as is well known, is popularly depicted as killing the serpentine dragon.

These examples in fact refute Mr. Auster’s simplistic argument that one cannot have “mixed” feelings about one object. The Gadsden flag, whatever its origin, coexists with the Genesis imagery and such accounts as St. Patrick driving the snakes from Ireland. Can one not have both positive and nagatove feeling about the Supreme Court, for example, or about Picasso? Can one not have the same mixed feelings by noting the same imagery was used by the Southern states against the North during the Civil War?

Mr. Auster’s comment that I am somehow trashing a national symbol is without basis. The point of my post was to state what seemed obvious to me, as it would have been to anyone living in the 18th century, and to see whether anyone else had had a similar thought. Mr.Auster’s vitriolic and excessive response has not clarified matters, except that I now know he had not had that thought.

Thanks to Gary for the information. I had found that information as well. I was not arguing that the Genesis snake was the source of the imagery, only that the echo had so occurred to me. Perhaps I am tuned more into Old Testament symbols, and less into early rebellious colonial ones, than I ought to be.

Thanks again.

Gerald

I’ve always loved the rattlesnake flags and the link you provided about the history allowed me to buy one of them, as well as a nice window decal for my new truck. I had the Stars and Stripes on my old truck but haven’t put anything on the new one as yet. Thanks kindly.
Benjamin Franklin’s musings on the rattlesnake as a symbol were also very interesting. Having come literally face to face with a couple of rattlesnakes I can attest that they are right peaceable if given the opportunity. I even caught one accidentally once—saw him with the tail of my eye as it were and before I could think I had him pinned behind the neck with my knife. Funny thing is I didn’t want to kill him, and it was a bit of a predicament, since he was pretty good sized and naturally really pissed off. I unwrapped him from my arm, took him by the tail and sort of flung him away, remaining thankfully unbitten. He wasn’t very happy as he slithered off, still rattling furiously, but we can both laugh about the story now.
It always makes me laugh to see rattlers sneaking up on people in the movies and biting them in the throat. It’s pretty easy to avoid them, just make lots of noise as you walk. I’ve only run into them when I was trying to be quiet—practicing my indian skills when I was a scout. Since I’ve started tromping around in steel-toed boots they feel my passage and duck out quick.
Since I live in Arizona, I wouldn’t feel right without saying at least: Go Diamondbacks!!

I was not “refuting” anything, and therefore my retort to Mr. Russello did not require any evidence beyond what was already in his own post. Rather, I was expressing a sense of offense at Mr. Russello’s mixed message. He had started off by saying “I have the same thoughts about the flag as well,” i.e., he had the same strong positive feelings about the “Don’t Tread on Me” flag that I had expressed. Then he turned around and spoke of the resemblance of the snake to the snake in Genesis, and said that this doesn’t seem propitious. His subtext clearly was, America in its rebellion from Great Britain was using a symbol that showed it to be in rebellion against God and in alliance with the devil, and that such a symbolism was obviously most unfortunate and was impropitious for the people and the country using it.

Very simply, one cannot hold to both views—that one finds that particular flag a personally inspiring symbol of American strength, character, and independence, and that one thinks that that flag should be seen as a symbol of solidarity with the devil and as an impropitious sign for America. If one sees the flag in such negative terms, one cannot possibly have the positive feelings about it that Mr. Russello claimed to have.

The Biblical symbolism of the serpent isn’t all bad. Jesus told his disciples, “be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves.” Matt 10:16 :-)

I am at a loss as to how Mr. Auster can divine my feelings, positive or negative, about any particular thing, let alone comment on any postmodern “subtext” in my post. Nor do I comprehend how Mr. Auster is apparently unable to cotton to the idea that one can hold two things in the mind at once about a particular symbol: such “mixed feelings,” in fact, are what some symbols do. Is not the Cross at the same time a sign of a painful death reserved for criminals (indeed, political rebels) as well as a sign of triumphant resurrection? Not to appreciate both at once is to miss out on part of the meaning, a double meaning the Old English poem “Dream of the Rood” brings out quite nicely. While the Gadsden flag does not fall inot the categhory, the mere appreciation of multiple possible meanings to a particular symbol seems to me one of the achivements of the culture.

I was not saying anything about rebellion from God or solidarity with the Devil. I was merely saying was that the snake has had in the Western tradition negative connotations, and that it struck me as odd that the young colonies would choose it. While I understand that their use of the rattlesnake - as a native of the new World - was inspired, again I thought I was merely stating the obvious.

Mr. Auster’s simplistic equation of one symbol with one acceptable meeting is unfortunate, and the ideolgical tone of allegiance to “pure” symbols ofnationhood smacks of political correctness. Further, his deliberate mischaracterization of my (I thought) rather commonplace observation, without in fact addressing the substance, is disappointing, as I know from his other work that he is an insightful and considered writer.

Thanks Joel! That is exactly what I was looking for!

Gerald

Methinks you all are making a big fight out of a little disagreement. Still, thanks to all for a lively history lesson.

As for our Lord’s serpents, perhaps our Colonial ancestors were not wise as they. They do seem, based on what we tolerate from overweening government, to have been wiser than we!

While we still have some vestiges of the independence those Colonials won for us, Happy Independence Day! (Yes, I know how to say that in Spanish, but I’m not going to.) HRS

I agree with you, Mr. Sutherland. Happy Fourth to all.

It is ridiculous to suggest that I am denying that symbols can have multiple meanings. I am saying that the two particular meanings or rather two attitudes that Mr. Russello expressed in this case are incompatible with each other; and second, I am saying that to cast such a dark and negative imputation on the flag—especially in the context of what was intended as a celebration of Independence Day and of America—was offensive. Some things actually are offensive. And to say so is neither “simplistic thinking” nor political correctness.

Well, after explaining myself at least twice that I was making a factual statement about the possible oddity of a snake being a symbol for the colonies, rather than intending any offensive meaning, I will not try again. Gary and Joel, as well as my own research, provided me with some actual enlightenment on the historical context of the Gadsden flag, which was one point of my question and I think more in the spirit of this list.

Instead, I am accused of “undermining” symbols, being “offensive,” that code word for ideological sensitivity, and accusing the colonists of being in solidarity with the devil. Of such accusations poor invective is made.

Mr. Russello insists that his initial comment was nothing but a detached, abstract, scholarly inquiry, with no possible implication of casting a very negative meaning on a national symbol at the moment it was being affectionately honored, and that I therefore am a philistine or worse for being offended by what he said. For all the reasons I’ve stated, I did not read his comment that way.

However, if I am a philistine on this, I’d say it’s better to be a philistine than a Straussian. Mr. Russello, an astute critic of the Straussians, will understand my meaning.

Also, it occurred to me after this exchange, my initial post was a personal tribute to the flag with the motto “Don’t tread on me.” So what happened? Mr. Russello came along and, as I perceived it, and whether it was intentional or not, tread on that flag. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that I struck back. I was acting in the spirit of the very thing I was honoring.

In any case, I hope Mr. Russello will forgive me for any excessive zeal in my response.

Here is the key information on the origin and meaning of the rattlesnake symbol from the site that Gary kindly linked:

In December 1775, “An American Guesser” anonymously wrote to the Pennsylvania Journal:

“I observed on one of the drums belonging to the marines now raising, there was painted a Rattle-Snake, with this modest motto under it, ‘Don’t tread on me.’ As I know it is the custom to have some device on the arms of every country, I supposed this may have been intended for the arms of America.”

This anonymous writer, having “nothing to do with public affairs” and “in order to divert an idle hour,” speculated on why a snake might be chosen as a symbol for America.

First, it occurred to him that “the Rattle-Snake is found in no other quarter of the world besides America.”

The rattlesnake also has sharp eyes, and “may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance.” Furthermore,

“She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage. … she never wounds ‘till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her.”

Finally,

“I confess I was wholly at a loss what to make of the rattles, ‘till I went back and counted them and found them just thirteen, exactly the number of the Colonies united in America; and I recollected too that this was the only part of the Snake which increased in numbers. …

“‘Tis curious and amazing to observe how distinct and independent of each other the rattles of this animal are, and yet how firmly they are united together, so as never to be separated but by breaking them to pieces. One of those rattles singly, is incapable of producing sound, but the ringing of thirteen together, is sufficient to alarm the boldest man living.”

Many scholars now agree that this “American Guesser” was Benjamin Franklin.

I agree fully with Mr. Auster. Indeed, for about six months I have had the Gadsen flag as the desktop background on my Mac.

Old Glory has been coopted by a government that will spend billions on fighting overseas but refuses to protect the national borders. The same government has is making a mockery of the rule of law and the wishes of citizens by continuing to work for an amnesty for illegal aliens. The same government pushes ‘diversity’ that particularly harms the people whose ancestors created the country. (BTW Joe Guzzardi at Vdare.com has a great article on the misuse of our national flag).

I have never felt comfortable displaying the Confederate Battle Flag, which for many Southerners is a symbol protesting an federal government which is working against their interests. The Stars and Bars do carry some racial baggage, and I come from a long line of Yankees who didn’t (and don’t) have kind feelings towards the ‘rebels’. Therefore I chose the Gadsen flag as an appropriate symbol — rooted in the history of the country — to express my anger at the government but support for the nation.

No offense taken. Your responses reflect the vigor and independence of the American rattler.